Bonus Episode: Don’t box yourself in: Two former dancers on their transition to new lives with Roland Spier and Jaya Puglise
After a childhood and youth spent rigorously training for professional careers in ballet, Roland Spier and Jaya Puglise each suffered career-ending injuries. With their hopes for careers in dance at an end, both were faced with finding new purpose and identities. They each attended Columbia University in New York. Both in their 20’s, Roland and Jaya work as management consultants now but are giving back to dance and dancers through Second Act, which Jaya describes as ”a network to connect current and former dancers of all backgrounds to streamline the difficult transition and creates a support system for personal and professional growth.” Says Roland, “Second Act was born from my experience struggling to find a path after hanging up my dance shoes due to injury. I want to create a resource for dancers experiencing a similar transition to find support, both personal and professional. I am passionate about this opportunity to bring dancers together, while giving back to the arts.”
Topics include:
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The close identity young dancers develop to the profession, because they start so young, often at three or four, and then spend time at the dance studio rather than in after school activities
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The strong bonds young dancers form with their classmates as they work towards performances and reaching milestones in the craft, which are hard to reproduce outside of the dance world
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Feeling gratitude for the skills gained through the years of study and practice, but sadness too for the dance career that didn’t happen.
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Empathizing with young Olympic athletes and the pressure they feel to perform and what happens when they can’t “deliver”
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The difficult transition out of the dance world to finding new interests and pursuits.
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Founding the nonprofit mentoring group Second Act, bring together mentors with younger dancers transitioning to other careers
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Adjusting to enjoying ballet as audience members
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Their advice to others: Don’t box yourself in, there is a lot that’s open to you.
Resources:
Instagram: @secondactnyc
Roland Spier is originally from Washington D.C and trained at the Washington School of Ballet, dancing alongside the company in many of their productions. After graduating high school he was invited to be a trainee in Pacific Northwest ballet’s Professional Division where he performed with PNB also freelancing as a guest artist with smaller companies and studios. He took two gap years, prior to starting at Columbia University from which he graduated in 2020 with a major in architecture and a concentration in East Asian studies. Currently an Associate Consultant at OC&C, Roland focuses on corporate strategy and M&A due diligence across sectors.
Jaya Puglise grew up in Vermont, training at Vermont Ballet Theater. After attending summers at the Bolshoi Ballet Academy summer intensive, she was awarded a full scholarship to train at the school in Moscow for a summer while taking Russian language classes, and later invited to stay to train year round. After a severe foot injury led her to stop ballet, Jaya studied abroad in Russia for her final year of high school.
Jaya graduated from Columbia University in 2020 with a double major in political science and Russian language and culture. She received departmental honors for her thesis “Creating Memory and Commemorating the Wronged: Alexei Ratmansky’s The Bolt and The Bright Stream”Now working at OC&C Strategy Consultants as an Associate Consultant, Jaya works across a variety of industries in corporate strategy and due diligence projects.
Transcript
Betsy Bush (00:00):
We talk on this podcast a lot about life changes that for someone to take a new life or career path. My guests today are still in their twenties, but have so much to share about their journeys. Roland Spier and Jaya Puglese were pursuing their passions as ballet dancers when they suffered career ending injuries. Not only have they gone on to higher education and other careers, but they have formed a mentoring organization for dancers transitioning out of dance into new lives,. Roland and Jaya, welcome to The Latest Version. I'm so glad to have you here with me today.
Jaya Puglise (00:40):
They thank you so much, Betsy.
Roland Spier (00:42):
Thank you so much, Betsy, for having us, we're both really excited to be here with you.
Betsy Bush (00:46):
You know, listeners to this podcast know that at the age of 56, I went back to get a second undergraduate degree at Columbia University here in New York City. I ended up majoring in architecture. I graduated in May 2020, and one of my fellow architecture classmates was Roland. And I had no idea Roland that you had been training to be a ballet dancer. And in fact, I had found talking to people that there were a number of dancers at Columbia who were either in the School of General Studies, which was my entry path into Columbia or in the regular program. Jaya, you as well were at Columbia. So gosh, we have so much to talk about. Tell me a little bit about what your early lives were like training to be ballet dancers.
Roland Spier (01:44):
Absolutely happy to kick it off. So yeah, I grew up dancing ballet from a very young age. My mom had danced her entire life and thought it was a great idea to introduce it to me. And then yeah, kept going on with it from early childhood into my adolescence really took a passion for it in high school, I would leave my academic classes is at 2:00 PM every day to go train from two to six and then go back after and do my homework. And by the time I was graduating, I was deciding whether I wanted to pursue ballet professionally or apply to regular university. So I applied to Columbia, but then after that decided to take two gap years, that's what they allot you And, and first went to Miami city ballet school for a year. And after that was recruited to be a trainee in the PD program, the professional division program at Pacific Northwest ballet in Seattle, where I danced for a year. And it's after that. And unfortunately, after a pretty major injury that I decided to go back to school and somewhat move away from that professional path that I had been on.
Betsy Bush (02:47):
Jaya how about you?
Jaya Puglise (02:48):
I definitely had a very similar upbringing to Roland and that my parents put me in ballet classes at a super young age, except I hated it. I despised it. I didn't wanna be dancing. And the rule was I had to dance until sixth grade and then I could stop. But then I kind of backfired on my parents because by the time I hit sixth grade, I was like, wow, this is great. This is what I wanna do. I wanna be a ballet dancer. And they were like, oh gosh, <laugh> okay, great. But I continued that all the way through high school, one summer, I received a full scholarship to train at the Bolshoi Ballet academy, which is a pretty large ballet school in Russia. So I spent some time there. I was invited to stay there and continue my training there, but that would've meant not finishing high school in the us. So I decided to come back here, finished high school and basically suffered a really severe ankle injury that had kind of built up over time. And I got to a point where I either needed a complete reconstruction done or I just had to stop. And so the answer was pretty clear to me. And so I stopped dancing, applied to college, got into Columbia and continued on that path.
Betsy Bush (03:57):
Wow. So I don't, how many of us, I mean, a lot of us have sports or things like that, that you start when you're little, but there's something about dance that I think it takes over, or it takes a large part of your identity or it becomes a large part of your identity. You're also at a different institution where you're with other kids. It's not like playing football on the school team or basketball or something like that, where you're part of your school atmosphere. What was that like to be training and, you know, tell me what it was like to have that identity form with you when you were so small. Yeah.
Jaya Puglise (04:38):
So I think for me personally, it was, it made me feel quite different than the rest of my peers in school. And that was something that I always struggled with because after school I wasn't hanging around and doing school sports and I wasn't playing soccer or going to football games. I was leaving as soon as the bell ring and running to ballet class. And I was there until like nine or 10:00 PM each night. So while my identity wasn't really caught up in school and what other kids at my age were doing my entire life was at the ballet studio. And so I was there. Homework was a second thought when I got home and finished my homework. I was still thinking about ballet again, watching ballet videos, thinking about what I could do better. My next class, stretching, conditioning, all of that.
Roland Spier (05:24):
Yeah, absolutely same here. And I think once, you know, the 2:00 PM bell would hit and I would go over to Washington ballet to the Washington ballet studios, completely different world, amazing community of friends that I made there. And what's incredible about ballet is that you not only have class where you're, you know, going through the techniques and the exercises doing on a daily basis, but you then also have performances that you sometimes are rehearsing for months for. So you really are able to form these very strong bonds and connections with others that you're with for five hours a day. And it not only requires teamwork, but it just requires a level of communication that really leads to forming incredible connections with others. Yeah.
Jaya Puglise (06:02):
You just become so determined at a young age because you're always working towards something, whether that be getting point shoes, if you're a female or
Roland Spier (06:10):
Yeah.
Jaya Puglise (06:10):
Practicing for the next big show, getting a variation. Yeah.
Roland Spier (06:14):
Pirouettes as a guy learning the next new jumps or trick as a guy you're always there. You're always practicing and, and there's very much a set path to improving mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, which gives you, you know, the schedule and the strategy to push yourself further. Mm-hmm
Betsy Bush (06:28):
And I wonder now that you're out, how do you look back at that time in your life as well? I should say you're both for professionals now, right? You’re consultants with an international consulting firm.
Roland Spier (06:41):
Yeah. We both work for a boutique strategy international firm based in London, but we work out of their New York office and it's kind of a coincidence that J and I ended up there together because we were actually friends in college as well. But yeah, it's great to be working together at this firm. How I look back at that experience. I think it's with a lot of joy, a lot of joy for the discipline, the values that it taught me a lot of joy and gratefulness for the people that I met through it, the incredible connections and the incredible people that I've gone to do. Amazing things that I've been able to connect with. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And on the other hand, you know, a bit of sadness to be perfectly honest of what could have been mm-hmm <affirmative> there were many times where my life might have gone down a different path if it had not been, you know, for one injury or a couple injuries. Yeah. A little bit of sadness due to that, about giving something else up, but a lot of gratitude and a determination to give back to the arts and give back to the dance community. How I can mm-hmm <affirmative>
Jaya Puglise (07:37):
Yeah. I think I feel very similarly Roland in that I look back and I'm so grateful for all of the time I got to spend with my teachers, with my peers. Some of my dance friends are still they're the closest people to me. I speak to them all the time and the discipline and the skills you learn are just irreplaceable. Those are skills that never really leave you. But at the same time, I do look back with a lot of sadness because obviously I wish I could have continued down my dance career path. And also at the same time, I do feel like I learned a lot of unhealthy behaviors at a young age, which then I was conditioned to believe or normal. And now when I look back and reflect upon it, which I've obviously done a lot of recently with Second Act, I look back and I'm like, oh, okay. I really shouldn't have felt that way at 13 or 14. Like I should have felt a lot different, a lot better about myself at that age.
Betsy Bush (08:32):
Can you give us some examples?
Jaya Puglise (08:33):
Share. Yeah, sure. I think as a ballet dancer, you kind of, you never really feel good enough. You're always really striving for perfection. And whether that be your technique, whether that be how you look or the attention you receive, like you're always really just pushing and pushing. And that is really draining, especially when you're an adolescent mm-hmm
Roland Spier (08:56):
<affirmative> yeah. There's a certain level of pursuit of perfectionism that moving into your career. You know, now our, our careers as consultants in the professional world that you have to manage with yourself and learn to give up to a certain extent, you know, and that's on the flip side of a lot of incredible values, like grit, hard work, perseverance learning to be patient with yourself that you learn through, um, dancing and growing up, doing ballet mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I think what's been incredible through second act is that we have found a community of people who we can really relate to and connect with about this experience.
Betsy Bush (09:33):
We've just finished watching the winter Olympics. What do you see when you see very young athletes, athletes who might still be teenagers in contention for Olympic medals? What do you see as far as training and you know, whole life involvement and something like that? I'm just wondering what your take on it is.
Roland Spier (10:18):
Absolutely. Well, certainly the pressure, first of all, I think you mentioned that image of, you know, the coach, unfortunately, maybe berating that young athlete. And I think, you know, we've had great experiences with teachers in the ballet world who have taught us values and you know, things about ourselves and how to succeed. But I think we've also all had a moment, you know, dealing with, with someone who is an authority figure, just putting you under a lot of pressure at a very young age and I think that for a lot of dancers, especially those who, you know, grow up doing this, this is their whole identity. This is their whole life. Having that opportunity to, you know, to do the thing that you're best at taken away from you can be extremely difficult and extremely challenging. So that is what I see there.
Jaya Puglise (11:08):
Yeah. I think you nailed it Roland. And it always makes me think about, well, what's next for them? Mm-hmm <affirmative> like, how do they transition into whatever new life that they want? But when you've been doing figure skating for so long or ballet for so long, and I mean, gymnastics, it's quite similar as well. You've been training your entire life so intensively, where do you go next? How do you figure out what you care about? Like, what do you wanna learn? Where do you wanna ago? And all of that is just, it's exciting, but it's also incredibly stressful and nerve wracking.
Roland Spier (11:45):
And it's certainly something that both J and I both experienced in stopping ballet and then figuring out what to do next in our lives. Mm-hmm mm-hmm and it was, for me, at least it was a very difficult transition period, both in terms of finding new interests and also emotionally giving up what had been a past life and having other people there to support me and give me guidance was a crucial part of find, think my path.
Betsy Bush (12:13):
Yeah. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about finding that new path, because if you've done nothing but dance, and of course you're also involved in the music and things like that, and yet you found architecture to be interesting. Tell me how you came upon that.
Roland Spier (12:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think as a freshman at Columbia, you're exposed to a lot of different pursuits and architecture was the first that really jumped out to me. I'd always been interested in it growing up and then finding that intersection of art and also mathematics and geometry and STEM really spoke to me and in a way, similarly that validated and that there is structure, but there's also creativity and is what initially drew me to architecture and really finding that as a pursuit to be able to reshape my identity, find a new purpose, was extremely helpful and was very much a healing experience. You know, as I progressed through undergrad and I had an incredible time in the program, even if I'm not a practicing architect now, it was just an incredible experience. And so glad that I found on that as a channel mm-hmm
Betsy Bush (13:16):
That's great. GIA, I know you studied in Russia. Why don't you talk about that? And then you came to Columbia and you continued that interest in Russian studies, correct?
Jaya Puglise (13:26):
Yeah. So when I decided to stop dancing, my way of coping with that was, you know, like I can't stay at home. I, I don't wanna be in the place where I've, I've done the same thing for so many years, but not be able to do that thing. So I went back to Russia and I finished high school there. I had really fallen in love with the Russian language and culture when I had dancing there. So it kind of seemed like a really easy and easy transfer to kind of throw myself into in Columbia. I studied that along with politics and, you know, I loved my studies. I loved my time at Columbia, but I don't think I ever really filled that niche that ballet did. And that was something I struggled with for a lot of years, because while I loved Russian literature, I loved what I was learning. It, it just wasn't the same. And I didn't have that same fire or drive. And it took a lot of thinking and searching within myself to kind of figure out like, you know, I still love ballet a lot and trying to figure out how I can interact with it and include it in my life is probably something I need to do. So my senior thesis was about a famous choreographer. His name is Alexei Ratmansky’s. And it was kind of an intersection between my Russian studies and ballet history and my thesis advisor, when I was presenting it at the end of the year, she sat me down and she was like, Hey, you know, I really think you need to acknowledge to yourself and you need to say this to everyone else that this is kind of a goodbye to your ballet identity as being just a dancer, because now you have included that ballet identity in your academic studies and pursuits, and that's something you should be really proud of.
Betsy Bush (15:10):
Nice.
Roland Spier (15:11):
Absolutely. And I think part of it now, and with this organization that we're starting is finding a way to embrace that within our careers, as young professionals and creating a community of people who also feel that connection.
Betsy Bush (15:24):
Okay. So let's talk about second act. I'm so inspired by how this has come to together thank quickly and so quickly. So tell me how you started it and how it's going and what its purpose is.
Roland Spier (15:38):
So second act was really born out of our experience, transitioning from ballet to our first higher education Columbia, and then both our academic focus and now our subsequent career in management consulting. And it is based on helping others who are going through this time of transition, speak to those who have done it and find a new path through these conversations that we're able to connect mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, between different people. So in practice, it means mentees who are, are either current professional dancers or who are pre-professional dancers who have had dance, be a focus of their whole life. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> connecting with people who are now working in second careers, in university, and being able to have conversations about what a new path for them can look like.
Betsy Bush (16:30):
So there is life after ballet.
Jaya Puglise (16:33):
There is
Betsy Bush (16:34):
You, there is <laugh> you do prove it. I'm sure not everyone can get into Columbia and do well at Columbia. It's a tough place academically. What is open for people who it's like, I don't think I can work at that level, but what else might be available to them?
Jaya Puglise (16:53):
We currently have about 40 to 50 mentors who were blown away by the stills in two months. Absolutely.
Betsy Bush (16:59):
Yeah. I mean, you just started this in the summer of 2021, right?
Roland Spier (17:03):
Right. Yeah. We started forming it in the summer of 2021, really building the building blocks for it in November and December of 2021 with our launch in January. And the response, you know, has been absolutely incredible. And I think what's been so great is that we are really getting a diversity in terms of the mentors that we're recruiting to be part of our network. Yeah. So, you know, not everyone needs to go to Columbia or, you know, at school, there are so many amazing opportunities beyond that. And that's what we're really leveraging this network to explore mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Jaya Puglise (17:34):
And I think the really cool thing about the network is that we are getting organic signups. So people wanna be involved. They wanna be able to give back, but also if we get a mentee who, for example, we just recently had someone who said that they're interested in real estate and we can dip into our networks and say like, Hey, does anyone know anyone who's done this or anyone who's done that? And we can very quickly find someone who kind of fits that bill. And that's, it's just incredible.
Betsy Bush (18:01):
That is incredible. Wow. You know, I can think of so many variations on this theme because I, a lot of people in the performing arts, maybe they don't have career limiting injuries, but they might just feel like they've hit a brick wall. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, it's like, I'm not getting anywhere, I'm auditioning, but I'm not getting roles or the roles are small and it, I'm not having the opportunities that I need to have maybe even just to support themselves. Right. Yeah.
Roland Spier (18:31):
Yeah. And I certainly had that experience very early on. I, I was, I had a couple offers to go to some regional companies, some second companies in different cities, different states, and never quite found that any of them was necessarily gonna be the right fit for what I wanted long term mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I think at having the opportunity to present to other people, a choice in terms of, you know, dance is amazing. We wanna support you for as long as you wanna remain in the dance world. But we also want you to know that if you ever decide to do something else, that there is a support system in place for you. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I think having that in place is really what we want to present to the dance community.
Jaya Puglise (19:08):
Yeah. And it's not just a support system in terms of professional development, so it's not just, oh, you wanna stop dancing? Okay. Well here's three or four career options that you may like. It's also that peer to peer emotional support. Mm-hmm <affirmative> in that. Oh yeah. I've been there. Like I get it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> because that's a really difficult transition to do by yourself. And it's very isolating.
Roland Spier (19:30):
And I, I think second act was also born out of us already having these conversations organically with these people mm-hmm <affirmative> and then thinking from there, how could we scale this to have a broader impact and really get some thought provoking conversation started?
Betsy Bush (19:45):
So are you just in the New York city area or do you see, do you have mentors all over the country? What sort of thing? You know, I realize you're a very young organization <laugh> and honestly, this is incredible to have 40 or 50 mentors already signed up because, well, I know people in the performing arts generally are very giving people very generous with their time and love to with others. So I'm not surprised really, but how do you see this rolling out and going forward?
Jaya Puglise (20:18):
Well, I think firstly, we really wanna build out our mentorship network because obviously that's the primary focus of second act is that mentorship piece. And we're gonna probably do a series on mental health going forward because that just seems to be a really hot and interesting topic for all of us. So we see there's like an event side and then we also are envisioning a kind of scholarship fund that we can give out to people who need it. So whether that be for college applications for short term travel to maybe go to see schools or go to job interviews, things like that. And then we'd also, this is go kind of getting up there in our dreams and future goals, but we'd really love to do a type of internship sponsorship where we can find and create internships for some of our mentees and dancers and kind of be able to match them to a company for a summer.
Roland Spier (21:22):
Absolutely. And I think on that first point also about it being national, we've received interest from all different cities, all different pockets. We have people on the west coast, we have people in Texas, we have people in the Southeast, the network effect has been real. Yeah. And the engagement has been national and quickly growing. So we are very thankful for all the people who have volunteered with us so far. And we are so excited to work with them.
Jaya Puglise (21:47):
And I do have to give a shout out to all of our friends who have helped us and joined us. A lot of our mentors have come from my time in Russia. So there's a weird group of us and we haven't spoken in years. And then I reached out about it. And now all of us have reconnected and are pretty actively talking and working on this together. And I know Roland you've been having a similar experience as well.
Roland Spier (22:09):
Absolutely reconnecting with people that I may not have spoken to for years and reaching out on LinkedIn and offering their support, offering their time, offering their advice. And we are so grateful for that. And yeah, we are really excited about where this is going, getting a board together, getting a really great team working and it's gonna be great. Wow.
Betsy Bush (22:27):
It sounds incredible. I'm wondering, do you have mixed feelings when you, do you go to ballet performances? What is that like to be in the audience and not on stage? Is that a difficult thing to do?
Roland Spier (22:43):
Yeah, Jaya and I actually went to two weeks ago, so, so we went to senior New York city ballet, which is awesome and they are so great and so happy that they are back on stage and dancing mm-hmm <affirmative> yes. Um, means so much for the New York art scene and in that community. Yeah. It is challenging sometimes, especially if you're watching or listening to a piece of music that you've danced to, it could be quite emotional. I think that I've found a new appreciation for it actually as an audience member now and you know, hopefully as a patron and seeing it from the audience point of view, you is, it can be both challenging sometimes, but also incredibly rewarding as well.
Jaya Puglise (23:13):
Yeah. I'd be lying if I said I didn't maybe tear up at every ballet performance I went to. Cause at some point you're gonna get emotional and you're not only thinking about your history with it, but you're also thinking about all of the hard work and effort these dancers have put into it. And it's just, it's a bit sad be cuz you reflect on your, your past, but at the same time, you're I get really excited for them. Cause I'm like, wow, look at them. They're on stage. They're doing it. We've all beaten. The COVID odds like the New York art scene is back. So there's also just a lot of joy there as well.
Betsy Bush (23:44):
Hmm. I wonder if you could pair down to three pieces of advice for dancers or really anyone I'm also thinking of athletes or performing artists who feel like it's time for me to make a break and I need to leave this life behind and start something else. Can you think of, you know, kind of three pieces of general advice you would offer to people in that situation?
Roland Spier (24:14):
I can certainly think of a few. I think the first thing I would say is listen to yourself, listen to your body. What is it telling you if that is what you know you are hearing from yourself? That probably means it is the right time to try something else. Speaking from my experience, I knew that I had a choice between pursuing dance professionally or going back to Columbia and I was tired. I was tired both emotionally I, my body was suffering. And just listening to that really keyed me in that this was the right time to make that choice and step back. That's the first piece of advice I would give. The second piece of advice I would give is be, open-minded really take a beginner's mind approach to discovering what your new path or your new purpose might be. I had never assumed that I would be a majoring in architecture and now working in consulting in the business world. And I think that taking a real step back to look at all your options, evaluate them based on your experience with a very open mind is a piece of advice that I would give. And the third is lean on your community, lean on your friends and don't be afraid to speak to people outside of the dance world. It was at times tough with fellow dancers who are still full throttle in it. And, and I a hundred percent respect them for it, but it, sometimes it can be all engrosing and it, you need to take a step back to remember that there's a wider world out there.
Jaya Puglise (25:36):
Yeah. I think my advice would probably hit on a lot of things that you just mentioned. Rolin first. I think it would be that there is a world outside of ballet and it is exploring, there is joy, there is happiness and there are other interests you can find and pursue and you don't really have to box yourself into that original identity you may have formed for yourself. My second piece of advice would be that you also don't have to throw away those skills that you've learned. I think some of the most successful people, I, I mean like let's look at Roland. Roland is brilliant. He's a great consultant. And a lot of those skills have come from
Roland Spier (26:13):
She's making me blush
Jaya Puglise (26:16):
Well also just look at our community of mentors. Absolutely. They're they're Incredible. We are so inspired by them. Wow. They have done amazing things and a lot of them will credit their success to their strict ballet. True. And that type of upbringing. So not forgetting that those skills are actually really valuable and you can easily transfer them to something else. And then I think third would be that you don't have to completely rid yourself of that identity. And at some point you can figure out a healthy way to interface with ballet or dance in a way that is beneficial to yourself and kind of makes you feel like you haven't fully left it, but also in a way that is allowing you to move on and move forward with your life.
Roland Spier (27:00):
And we see a lot of people as well, who go down the, the path of dancing and doing another career at the same time. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And while Jay and I didn't go down that route, we see a lot of people doing that very successfully in terms of some of our mentors. So for people who do want to go down that route, there are definitely ways to do it as well.
Betsy Bush (27:17):
what sort of thing could you do that would allow you to dance part-time are there like community dance companies that don't quite require the full-time engagement?
Roland Spier (27:28):
Well, yeah, there's a lot of freelancing. I I think especially in the New York art scene, we have one mentor, uh, shout out Ali block, uh, who, who I'm thinking about. She's incredible. She's actually gonna be leading our panels on mental health mm-hmm <affirmative> and she has both graduated from Columbia with a degree in psych does clinical research as well as dancing for a number of regional ballet companies. And there, there are plenty op of opportunities to do. So, you know, there's a lot of guesting, a lot of freelancing. I did some of that, you know, prior to kind of hanging up the dance shoes mm-hmm <affirmative> and could definitely see it as an opportunity to keep it dancing part-time as well. And there are, are also a number of people who do both and who maybe do ballet full-time number of New York city ballet dancers who are so impressive. Mm-hmm <affirmative> who are doing both that full-time and then taking part-time classes in Columbia. GS. Yeah.
Jaya Puglise (28:16):
Yeah. Shout out to Allie. Allie is lovely and we're really excited to be working with her, but she's, she manages to kind of balance both day ants and pursuing her career in psych, which is really amazing to see happen. Yeah, she does it so well
Roland Spier (28:32):
And it's not for everyone, right. Like I think, I think there are people who do want to put it behind and mm-hmm, <affirmative> move on. I, I certainly fell in that camp, but for there are certainly opportunities to do both.
Betsy Bush (28:43):
Oh, and that's so interesting. What do youth think valet gave you that you're taking into your professional career? What, uh, skills or what do you draw on at times when you're in those meetings and you have to think, oh, now I have to come up with a, with a move, you know, right. With a step here.
Roland Spier (29:02):
I think there's a funny thing in the performing arts world where you're, that you never make a mistake until the audience sees that you're reacting towards making that mistake. And I think that's something that's actually, I hope my bosses aren't listening to this <laugh> but this is something that's actually, I think carried over quite well in the professional world is having that ability to perform under pressure in front of an audience is something that is an incredible skill. And I am so grateful that ballet gave me that. I think teamwork is also something that's really important. The work that Jaya and I do, it's, it's very team focused. We're in these teams of maybe four to six people working very closely for one to two months at a time on these very concrete focused projects and having that ability to connect with others and really listen to them the way you're listening to your, uh, partner in the studio or the way you're listening to the other people in your core group, when you're doing a ballet and being very attuned to what works and what doesn't has been very helpful for me.
Jaya Puglise (30:03):
Yeah. I think definitely all of the things Roland has mentioned, but I think as dancers we're quite stubborn. I mean, we'd stay in the studio until we perfected something. We would do the same piece over and over again for months at a time until it was good enough to put on stage. So in the workplace we're perfectionists, but it's a different type of perfectionism. It's not, we're not gonna drive ourselves absolutely mad, but we wanna get it right. And we're gonna learn how to do it the right way. And I think that's something that definitely, I feel like sets us apart
Roland Spier (30:36):
And there are flaws as well. Don't get, don't get us wrong. They're
Jaya Puglise (30:38):
Total flaws. ! (Laughter)
Roland Spier (30:40):
We're not, we're not perfect either. There are definitely a number of things, you know, that come with those 15 years of experience that, you know, shape you in, in good ways and others in ways that aren't so positive. But yeah.
Jaya Puglise (30:52):
So one of those being, I feel like I have an odd sense of hierarchy in the workplace. Absolutely. Which is something I recently realized. And I've been talking to a lot of people about, cause ballets quite, it's the people who are above you, they're above you. Yep. And you know, your place in line, but in a workplace where everyone's kind of all friends, right? Yeah. It's, it's weird.
Roland Spier (31:13):
You don't take the principle spot at the ballet barre.
Jaya Puglise (31:16):
Oh, Never
Roland Spier (31:16):
In our office. I mean the, the manager, you know, the manager is sitting two desks down from you and is, you know, the friendly guy, you get a coffee with and who's willing to talk about, you know, your, your life goals. Right. So yeah, definitely a bit of a transition there as well.
Betsy Bush (31:29):
Oh, that's so interesting. Right. <laugh> because I think in a lot of offices now, right. They're trying to introduce a more flattened, right. Uh, less hierarchical office structure, right. Where everyone, something different to bring to the table and you need to listen to everyone. Sure. Yeah. Interesting. This has been a fantastic conversation and I'm so grateful to have had Roland Spier and Jaya Puglese with me today. They are the co-founders of Second Act, which is a mentoring organization for dancers transitioning out of dance and being mentored by those who have already done it. And they are recent graduates from Columbia University and they are professional consultants. And obviously they're really incredible people and I'm so grateful to have had them on The Latest Version today. Thank you so much. Thank you.
