Episode 22: Susan Pava: Looking Forward By Accepting Your Past
An ugly divorce became a life pivoting point for Susan Pava, but she has emerged as a more centered and driven person. She talks about the lessons she learned, the practices that have helped her find peace and purpose, and her advice for anyone currently in an unhealthy relationship who is considering divorce.
Topics included:
The immense benefits of journaling for healing
Must do’s if you anticipate needing to divorce
How to prioritize your children in the midst of divorce
And much more!
Susan Pava, LMFT practices in New York.
Resources:
Broken Open by Elizabeth Lesser
Transcript:
Susan Pava (00:38):
You are not the only one living this story and you will get through it. Don't keep looking back. What did I do wrong? What should I have done? That time is over. You're living in the present and looking forward. So it doesn't matter what happened in the past. Just exist today and see where it takes you.
Betsy Bush (00:58):
Many of us have had the experience of a difficult divorce. The disappointment of a marriage entered into with optimism and hope that turns into something very different. Many people take years to recover from the trauma. My guest today, Susan Pava took a different path. She used her divorce experience to go back to school and become a licensed marriage and family therapist, specializing in divorce and relationship recovery. She has both practical advice as well as a message of renewal that every person ending a difficult relationship needs to hear Susan, welcome to the latest version. I'm so glad you're here with us today.
Susan Pava (01:45):
Thank you, Betsy. Thank you so much for having me today
Betsy Bush (01:49):
Where you started out, um, is very different from where you are now. And I think a lot of us have these, these stories of coming out of college and going into a field where you thought you would stay for a while. You had an interesting early career in advertising. Can you tell me about that?
Susan Pava (02:08):
Yes, I, after I left college, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I wasn't ready to work. So I went to, uh, Syracuse university, the new house school and got a masters in telecommunications and film, and then found myself in New York city first working for MTV as a production assistant, and then landing my first job in advertising.
Betsy Bush (02:38):
Uh, you had some really national or international level clients that was kind of the end of the mad men era. If I can put it that way. Can, can you describe what that was, what that time was like for,
Susan Pava (02:52):
Uh, sure. I probably came in after the mad men era, but there was still, the culture was somewhat bill there. I was fortunate enough to get my first job in the oldest advertising agency in the country. And I was fortunate enough to work on accounts like AT&T the reach out and touch someone de beersdiamonds, Avon seven up, or, you know, big, big products. So they had the budgets and it was loads of fun. I learned a lot. And it was kind of a, an interesting culture to be involved in.
Betsy Bush (03:34):
Yeah, it sounds, it sounds very heady and exciting. Um, I had that sort of experience myself right out of college when I was, uh, kind of in the, uh, broadcasting world behind the scenes in New York. Um, you also met your first husband in, in those years, am I correct? Right when,
Susan Pava (03:58):
Um, we worked on an AT&T, um, commercial sponsoring the live aid concert years and years ago, he was the art director and I was the producer. And that was how it started. We are still terrific friends to this day. We have one daughter together who's remarkable. And, um, we seem to have done everything right.
Betsy Bush (04:24):
So you had an experience where a relationship ended, but there was a friendship that, or at least an amicability between the two of you that kind of maybe made you think that this was always what it was going to be like if you had to go through say a second divorce.
Susan Pava (04:45):
Yes. I mean, I knew in the back of my mind that most people it's, it's hard to be amicable, but we were young. We had a small baby essentially, and we had a long time to navigate together. And I think both of us decided we weren't going to do it. I hate to say properly, but the easy way we weren't going to argue with one another. We weren't going to fight with one another. Our main focus was going to be our daughter and that's what it was. And she has thrived because of it,
Betsy Bush (05:22):
Many women, when they give up careers to marry, stay home with the kids, which many of us love doing by the way. Um, I was one of those, um, what happens to women when they do that? They're giving up, um, an, an income stream, uh, an ability to be independent. Um, uh, they put it, they're putting their trust in their partner to uphold their end of the bargain of what's happening here. Um, kind of explain what that whole thing is about.
Susan Pava (06:02):
You know, I think it's a difficult choice for women. Our culture, at least up till now has said that the mother stays home or works and raises the children. When you choose to stay home, you take yourself out of a community of peers. And if you're someone like me, who really wasn't that interested in having lunch dates and talking about teachers and diapers and that kind of stuff, it grows old very quickly. And you sort of miss the comradery of your peers. You miss the validation of your peers. Now, if you're married to somebody where it's a team effort all as well, but when you're married to somebody who sees you strictly as a housewife and mother, that causes lots of problems, unless that's who you really want to be, that was not me
Betsy Bush (06:59):
Explain how it was that you entered into the second relationship. Uh, what was, did you have specific goals in mind? Was it, you know, true love or was there something else that you were looking for?
Susan Pava (07:15):
I've done a lot of soul searching about this and I've come to the conclusion that I really, really wanted more children and I was willing to dance with the devil as they say, um, to get them, uh, I wouldn't really advise that to too many people because I landed in a heap of trouble with that attitude.
Betsy Bush (07:40):
When did you feel things were going off track?
Susan Pava (07:44):
Well, honestly, and I hate to admit this, but I knew in the very beginning, it just wasn't right, but I didn't know what right. Was in a marriage, but, you know, we all have a gut instinct and I knew early on something was just not right. But I had a goal in mind, which was to have more children and, um, I had blinders on to everything else.
Betsy Bush (08:13):
When did you feel that divorce was going to be the only solution to this problem?
Susan Pava (08:19):
I knew early on that this probably wasn't going to last, but I worked so hard and did my best. But when I realized that it was just me putting in the effort and that the person I was married to was not changing at all and had no interest in changing, or even meeting me half way, I realized that I could spend the rest of my life in a situation like this, or I could cut my losses and move on. So that's what I decided to do.
Betsy Bush (08:49):
When did you make the decision to become a licensed family therapist? And that sounds like a lot of training involved. Um, what, what was that process like? And, and what was, how did your thinking evolve on that?
Susan Pava (09:05):
It's kind of, I have kind of a funny answer for that. Um, when I spent 18 years old, my mother told me I should be a social worker and I poo-pooed her. I had just worked for the district attorney over the summer as a summer job. And I, the whole thing was not in the cards for me. Then I was in advertising and I was growing restless. So I took some social work classes, but, um, didn't finish it as I had a child, I had to swore. And then when my marriage went off the rails, uh, and was such a difficult litigious scorched earth divorce, I decided that I needed to help other people because I knew what they needed. And I knew that there was nobody out there who could help me. So I was just going to have to go in on my own and, um, hopefully learn what I needed to and help others.
Betsy Bush (10:08):
So, so when you were going through this, you really felt like the people who were supposed to that there wasn't the type of help out there that could assist someone in the position that you were in dealing with the type of person you were dealing with.
Susan Pava (10:23):
Yes. Um, I was married to somebody with a personality disorder. Um, so it, wasn't your normal diverse, excuse me. It wasn't your normal divorce. So I, I had things coming at me from every direction. I w I didn't know what end was up. Um, and there wasn't a single person out there who got it, who really could sit with me. I mean, I went to a therapist, but they weren't, and she was wonderful, but they weren't accustomed to somebody bringing in the problem that I had. And so I had to figure it out on my own. And surprisingly enough, when we're put in a position where we have to be resilient, it's amazing what we can find.
Betsy Bush (11:16):
What is the training involved in becoming a licensed family and marriage, counselor therapist.
Susan Pava (11:24):
I spent three years in classroom, uh, and two years post doing internships. And, um, and then additionally, I, since I was trained as a marriage and family therapist, which is more a systemic look at therapy, I also learned all the behavioral, um, types of therapy, like a CBT REBT act, so that I could really deal with people's emotional issues, their, um, dysregulation, the impulsivity, the anxiety, the depression, the PTSD, all of those things that get triggered when we're going through a divorce. So I, I sort of learned what I needed to know then, and now use it in the present and moving forward, moving forward in the future to help others.
Betsy Bush (12:21):
So you feel that you've had an, um, I wouldn't say a unique experience, but an ex very particular type of experience that you can use to help other people going through the same kind of process.
Susan Pava (12:36):
Yes. And what's remarkable is there are more people out there who are dealing with divorces like mine than you might ever believe. And in fact, I met a woman, um, in a program that I attended last week, and she's basically my, my twin from another mother. She has had the exact same experience and the same triggers from growing up that led her into a marriage with a narcissist or more worse sounds like in her situation, a lot of us are out there and a lot of us don't know what to do. Do we stay? Do we go, are we miserable? And I realized we get one life to live and, you know, don't give it away so fast.
Betsy Bush (13:28):
I would imagine there is a power dynamic, um, at work that must be frankly terrifying. If you're a woman who's been home, who doesn't have an ability to support herself and her children, that power dynamic, which is always in the hands of the other partner, must be, must be very damaging to a lot of people.
Susan Pava (13:54):
It is very damaging because it attacks your sense of who you are and how could I have been so wrong. And so there's a lot of self denigration and there, so a lot of questioning, how could I have done this, or I shouldn't have done this. Uh, you know, we can't hindsight is 2020, but you can't look at the decision you made 20 years later, based on what you know now versus what you knew 20 years ago, you made it knowing the, you know, with the information you had at the time. So you can't beat yourself up later in life to say, oh, I should've, I could've. Well, maybe, but maybe not. So it's all about healing. You know, we, we tend to beat ourselves up when we make mistakes and, and we're all human and we're all fallible and we all make mistakes, big ones and little ones.
Betsy Bush (14:54):
Uh, you were telling me about an experience you've had recently going to, um, taking part in a memoir writing workshop. Uh, and you found it very liberating or exciting to be a part of. Can you tell me a bit about that?
Susan Pava (15:10):
Um, I did a memoir writing course called from the heart up at the omega Institute in Rhinebeck, New York, which is a spiritual center. There were 34 of us, mostly women, but a few men. And I don't know how to explain it other than saying, it was the most extraordinary experience we came from all walks of life, but we all had a story. And the woman who taught the course made it so warm and comfortable and safe for us to share that. I think some of us looked at ourselves and couldn't believe we were actually doing this in front of 34 strangers. Um, you don't have to be a writer. I am, but there were plenty of people who aren't writers yet. They have a story to tell, and it was, uh, liberating, really liberating. And you felt held by everybody. The tears were flowing, the, the hugs, the, these were strangers. And at the end of five days, we feel like we know each other so well, and I can't recommend doing something like that. Doesn't have to be that, but just to get a better understanding of yourself and to learn to love yourself again.
Betsy Bush (16:32):
You know, memoir writing workshops are so interesting. Um, and if my listener who is not in the New York area is interested, you know, there are writing workshops and all sorts of spaces, community colleges, some libraries, adult education, um, programs often have memoir writing workshops. Um,
Susan Pava (16:59):
Excuse me, you can do many of them online. If you go to masterclass, ah, um, a woman, this woman that I met, she teaches a course on masterclass called the story alchemy. And essentially she shows you a way to, um, somewhat change the narrative that you've written for yourself and turn it into a narrative of self-love as opposed to a narrative of how could I have done this? And so there, there are a lot of them there, there's a place called Kripalu also. Um, I think it's an outside of Albany area,
Betsy Bush (17:43):
Perhaps think it's in the Berkshire's.
Susan Pava (17:46):
Um, so there are a number of places for people to, to do this kind of thing. If not online, everything is online now,
Betsy Bush (17:54):
Right. Do you, do you think you would recommend this to people, um, who are going through difficult, difficult, uh, relationship, uh, to think about a memoir writing process to maybe get to the bottom of what happened or, or whatever
Susan Pava (18:13):
Well, w whether you want to write your own memoir, or you just want to journal your thoughts, it's helpful. And, and while your journal, and you want to add a piece of gratitude, you want to write what you're grateful for. And if you can do that at the end of every day, before you go to sleep, neuroscience has shown us that within a matter of days or weeks, you will wake up the next morning in a better frame of mind, more able to greet the day. So writing is a way for us to process our emotions. And a lot of us don't process them at all, which is why we end up either feeling depressed or anxious or any number of things. I'm sorry, let's, let's say that again. Write down in a journal before you go to bed, The things that you're grateful for, and they don't have to be, you know, huge things they could be. I'm grateful. The train wasn't late today. I'm grateful. I didn't. I got out of work early. Um, I'm grateful my, my child ate their entire meal, Little things, little Fat enough to a whole lot when it comes to that and the same holds true for, um, when you look at your day, at the end of the day, don't look back on what went wrong. That's easy to do, but look back on what went well, that too, we'll set you up to wake up the next morning in a better frame of mind.
Betsy Bush (19:46):
That is that's some great advice. And I think that's something everyone can do. Whatever the state of your current relationship. It sounds like a very, very healthy thing to do. Um, it, you know, in the end, um, you've talked about, uh, going through this, this, um, terrible divorce becoming, uh, uh, and coming out at the other end with a new career and a new identity. Um, in the end, you really have a hopeful message for people who are facing, having to go through all of this.
Susan Pava (20:22):
I guess I believe wholeheartedly and making lemonades the lemon lemonade from lemons. Um, I took my experience and I worked it in such a way that I can use it now to help others. And by doing that, I continue to heal each and every day. Um, I would love to read a quote from a book called broken open by Elizabeth lesser, who actually is the founder of the omega Institute. And this book changed my life, basically when I was at the bottom, not knowing where I was going or what to do. I read this book and it spoke volumes to me. So if I could read this one quote, I would love to, I have noticed that the most generous and vital people are those who have been broken open by change or loss or adversity, and not just broken open on the outside. Indeed. It is the internal transformation that matters most. If there's one thing that has made a difference in my life, it is the courage to turn and face. What wants to change within me. And that's just one of the pearls in her book. But essentially she's saying what we know about everything in life. You have a choice you can choose to stay miserable and unhappy and broke it down. Or you can say, I have this one life. I have these values. I have these goals. I'm going to behave in a manner. That's going to get me to those goals. And I'm going to be broken open. I'm not going to be defeated. I'm going to let this lesson teach me and let the pain teach me what matters most in life. So someone neaten look at entering into what's going to be this kind of traumatic process and think, oh, you know, I've ruined everything. I'll never be the same. Um, I'll never recover from this. You don't ha you have a much more positive message. You don't have to do any of that. And granted, you know, it is hard. It's a hard task, but if you can keep the end goal, and that is to, I guess, just fly to, to figure out who you are and live that life that you so desperately want, because you can, it's just a decision to make,
Betsy Bush (23:06):
You know, Susan, I, I always ask my guests for three pieces of advice, but I'm wondering if you have some important tips for women who are thinking of divorce, um, in the very early stages.
Susan Pava (23:24):
Um, I have some, some tips that will help you, uh, in your everyday life. Like before you announced that you want a divorce, women need to open their own checking account, get their own credit card, organize yourself by getting papers of anything you might need, like, um, bank statements, property, deeds, all those things, but on the spiritual and emotional side, I think you have to accept that this is one of the most difficult things you may ever go through in life, but that doesn't mean that you can't do it. You will surprise yourself with how much resilience you have and that you're not alone. You are not the only one living this story, and you will get through it, just put those blinders on and, and look forward. Don't keep looking back. What did I do wrong? What should I have done time? That time is over. You're living in the present and looking forward. So it doesn't matter what happened in the past, just exist today and see where it takes you.
Betsy Bush (24:40):
What about, um, the team of people you should have around you?
Susan Pava (24:46):
Yes. I left that out and that is extremely important. Make sure that you have a team that you feel safe who is in questioning you, who isn't saying, did that really happen? Oh, that doesn't sound right. You want somebody who has your back. Who's not negotiating with another lawyer so that they can get a better deal. On another case they may have together. You want somebody who's going to, if they can't take your phone calls right away, they either will get back to you or they will send you an email. But more importantly, instead of counting on your lawyer, find yourself a therapist, not your best friend, because they're going to tell you what you want to hear, but find a therapist who can help safeguard the process for you.
Betsy Bush (25:40):
Um, any other words of wisdom? Um, before we say goodbye, you're, you're, you're just, um, a font of knowledge on a topic that's difficult for many people to talk about. And, and, uh, and contemplate.
Susan Pava (25:55):
I guess what I realized most is that you'll find during this time that you grow in ways you've never thought possible. There are so many unexpected gifts that you get that for me, at least I look at before the divorce and after the divorce. And I can remember saying to myself that God or whomever is up there must have some really unbelievably amazing things for me to put me through this real test of endurance. And I can't begin to tell you how karma has been paid back time and time again from getting the job that I wanted from meeting the right people, to things just appearing when I needed them. Most it is astounding. So my last words I suppose, are, make sure you open your heart. Don't close yourself off because change is coming. Change is difficult. Change is exhausting, but you can do it and you will be so happy and proud of yourself when you do.
Betsy Bush (27:11):
That's a wonderful hopeful message to end on, uh, Susan PAVA. Thank you so much for being my guest today on the latest version and all the best to you. And I am, I'm jealous of your patients because I know they're getting wonderful advice because you have just such a, a warm and positive message, but clear-eyed as well.
Susan Pava (27:36):
Thank you so much. [inaudible] for having me and allowing me to share my story with everybody.