Episode 25: Bonnie Marcus Has Some Invaluable Advice for Women in the Workplace
Bonnie Marcus has some truth that working women need to hear: gendered age-ism is real and it starts early. Bonnie talks about her research based on hundreds of surveys that reveal the many ways women are affected by this type of bias and how they can take action to better affect their longevity in the workplace.
Bonnie Marcus is an award-winning entrepreneur, Forbes contributing writer and executive coach. She has a great podcast, Bad-ass women at any age. Her new book is Not Done Yet: How women over 50 regain their confidence and claim their workplace power. Her article, Gendered Ageism Affects Women’s Job Security And Financial Viability, appeared in Forbes.com on September 21, 2021.
Topics include:
The large percentage of women who have experienced gendered agism, based on her original researchWhat gendered ageism look likeThe need for women to work longer for financial security vs being pushed out of a job at a relatively young age. Assumptions made about older workers that aren’t trueThe assumptions we make about ourselves that work against us.How advertising may be failing to reach older women (and their tremendous purchasing power) because of assumptions made by young ad execsAddressing the topic of age and gender stereotypes among colleaguesThe importance of documentationKeeping yourself up-skilled and front and center in the workplaceHonest discussions about women’s health and well being
Resources:
Bonnie Marcus's Forbes.com article on Gendered Ageism
Not Done Yet: How Women over 50 can regain confidence and reclaim workplace power by Bonnie Marcus
The Politics of Promotion: How High Achieving Women Can Get Ahead and Stay Ahead by Bonnie Marcus
https://bonniemarcusleadership.com/
Badass Women at Any Age podcast
Transcript
Bonnie Marcus (00:39):
Companies really need to get smart about this because you know, women over 50, especially hold the purse strings and we make something like 90% of the consumer product decisions. And for companies not to value the knowledge of women in this demographic, they're missing the boat.
Betsy Bush (01:02):
Oh, my guest today, Bonnie Marcus is a woman whose passion is to help other women embrace their talent and ambition and step into their full potential and achieve workplace power. She's an award-winning entrepreneur Forbes contributing writer and executive coach. And she too has a great podcast. Bad-ass women at any age, her new book not done yet. How women over 50 regain their confidence and claim their workplace power shines a light on gendered ageism in the workplace and gives women the tools and the voice to defy ageist assumptions and to stay marketable. Bonnie Marcus, it's such a pleasure to have you on the latest version. Thank you for being here.
Bonnie Marcus (01:55):
Thank you for inviting me. And I'm so glad we connected.
Betsy Bush (01:58):
This is great. Um, and I want to say to my listeners who may be a guy, please stay tuned to this episode because ageism can affect anyone and that's bad enough, but gendered age-ism directed towards women could impact your wife, your sister, the women who are important to you and your life. And there are so many women who are financially responsible for their children and eventually for their own retirement and gendered age-ism has potentially serious consequences for them. So Bonnie, I am so glad you're here because you've done some important research on this topic. Please tell me what you found.
Bonnie Marcus (02:45):
Well, some of it was not surprising, um, but some of it was, first of all of the obvious thing is that gendered ageism is real. It's a reality, um, out of the 729 women who responded to, to my survey, um, from the ages of 18, through 70, 80% said that they experienced gendered age-ism in the workplace. Uh, what was really interesting was that, although, you know, my work and my book has always focused on women approaching 50 and beyond 77% of the women under 35, who responded to the survey, said that they also had experienced, uh, gendered ageism, um, in very similar ways where people don't seek out their opinion. Uh, they aren't invited to key meetings. They aren't asked to be on, on some high profile projects. people talk over them. And again, it happens throughout our careers that we experienced this. What was really interesting is that when you say, is there a, a good age for professional women, what's the right age?
Betsy Bush (04:13):
When do you come into your own? Right.
Bonnie Marcus (04:17):
It turns out that there's one nanosecond, uh, around 38 to 40, where the experience of gender age-ism dips down to only 60%, but then every year after that incrementally, it increases until women 59 to 64, 80 8% said that they experienced it, um, consistently. So 38 to 40 -- chances are, you know, we're in the middle of raising our kids. We're also experiencing, um, the motherhood penalty if we choose to be a parent. So, uh, this really affects women throughout, throughout our careers. And, um, as we do get older, we experience it, um, more than I should say earlier than men, because research shows that, uh, the emphasis, our society, places on youthfulness and attractiveness, leads the bias against older women, as we show visible signs of aging, this is what kills me. We're viewed as less competent. Whereas men's income may increase with age. Uh, women's does not.
Betsy Bush (05:46):
So this hope that as we, uh, have experienced in the workplace and we put successful projects behind us and we, we achieve goals and things like this, the, the expectation I would have as I have experience I'm seasoned, I know what I'm doing. I know what I know how to handle high pressure situations, business cycles, all these different things that, that come, that can only come with experience. These things are not valued. That your that's what your research has found out? What the women who talked to you have been saying,
Bonnie Marcus (06:30):
Absolutely they they're marginalized easily dismissed. And in many cases pushed out of the workforce prematurely. Um, what my research also brought to light is that women in this age, demographic 50 and over, uh, want to keep working. And in many cases, the majority need to keep working because we don't have enough money to retire. And that is, uh, you know, due to, um, the effect of both gender bias and age-ism throughout our whole career until we reached this point. So not having enough money to retire, being pushed out of the workforce. If we're pushed out of the workforce, it's just extremely challenging to get rehired.
Betsy Bush (07:24):
And this all kind of coincides with the fact that we are living longer. Someone at 50 could have 30, 25, 30 years of a productive work-life potential potentially ahead of them. Um, and, and that's kind of scary to think that you could lose 10 or 20 years when you should be building income and be financially responsible for yourself. Not to be, um, I don't want to say a burden, but you want to be able to take care of yourself and maybe your dependents because you have children, you might have aging parents who need your help. So there are all sorts of things going on there. And, and there's also an interesting demographic shift happening where there are fewer young people coming into the workforce,
Bonnie Marcus (08:16):
Or I should say staying, staying in, in the workforce. So what we know about, um, gen X, millennials, uh, even gen Z, is they don't necessarily stay with a company for more than two, three years. So they tend to hop around a lot. And, um, whereas some of the more senior employees, uh, have much more tenure they've, they're much more loyal to their company.
Betsy Bush (08:47):
And, uh, these things, are they not, um, given priority in a company? What, what is the calculation, the calculations that people don't need to be paid as much, that they're going to move on any way, they're just gaining experience and then going on to the next thing. So you don't need to hire someone older who may stay with you, but then you have to pay them more. Uh, is there kind of a financial calculation?
Bonnie Marcus (09:13):
You may have to pay them more, although I tell you I've interviewed many, many women who have been unemployed for years who even like, "I'll take an entry level position." Yeah. You know, uh, of course there is an assumption that they need to be paid more perhaps, but younger employees are viewed as having much more value. And there are a lot of, um, misconceptions, assumptions about older workers, which aren't necessarily true that we're too old to learn new things that we don't have the energy and the stamina, you know, that, um, we, we aren't invested in our jobs anymore and we're not good at technology. Um, you know, research has proven that not to be the case as well when in fact we are much more engaged as employees, we're much more, um, committed to doing, doing the work and doing our best work and committed to, uh, learning and up-skilling.
Betsy Bush (10:25):
Yeah. I think a lot of us, when we get into a situation to have an opportunity to learn new things and to put those skills to work, that's actually an exciting thing.
Bonnie Marcus (10:38):
Right. But it's those ages, assumptions and stereotypes that provide those barriers, um, for men and women, as they approach 50 and beyond..
Betsy Bush (10:51):
You know, um, I've been talking to other people about the role of advertising and the images that are set forth of what older people. And I don't even know what older people, right. What, what is it? You know, it's such a large generation, you know, I mean, you might see something, an article or something that's referring to someone in the 60 plus years, but the picture is obviously someone who's 85 or 90. It's like, no, they're like two generations being depicted here. Um, and it's, um, it's, it's frustrating. And then you hear that the, uh, the, uh, advertising, uh, managers who were putting the campaigns together are in their twenties or thirties. Yeah. And, and so anyone over 50 or 60, they have a, they have an outdated view perhaps of what, 50 or 60, or even 70 looks like
Bonnie Marcus (11:56):
Companies really need to get smart about this because, uh, you know, women over 50, especially hold the purse strings and we make something like 90% of the consumer product decisions, um, especially on luxury items like cars and travel and things like that. And for companies not to, to value or to even consider the knowledge of women in this demographic, they're missing the boat. I mean, if, if you are developing even, you know, cars, right. You can see more advertisement now where women are included in, especially on TV and car ads. Right. Never used to be that way, but, um, if you're designing a product or service, that would be where an older woman might be, the, the buyer and you don't have them at the table when you're considering how to market and what your messaging is, or even when you're developing the product to begin with you're missing the boat.
Betsy Bush (13:11):
I totally agree. And, uh, you know, we make decisions about what car our family will drive or where we'll go on vacation or, uh, all the other household purchases, appliances, you know, those, you know, women make those decisions. Usually, you know, a man isn't going to decide what, what kind of dishwasher or, you know, laundry, you know, laundry set up, they're going to have that's that's. And it's frustrating to hear that even, you know, at the ad level, or why are, why are the companies not demanding that the, uh, ideal customer, the likely customers reflected in the team that's putting together that message. I mean, to me, that is a huge lost opportunity and probably leaving money on the table.
Bonnie Marcus (14:05):
It definitely is. I mean, the other thing that I think is interesting is, you know, there has been a, um, a push for gender equity, more women in leadership positions. And a lot of companies, you know, especially public companies are being forced by their boards and by public scrutiny to, uh, really, um, publish their progress or lack thereof of retaining women, of moving women into leadership. So now we've got this goal of helping younger women move through the pipeline to leadership. And when they look up at leadership, it's all older white men, women don't have any role models. And we know that role models are so important for younger women. Um, and that not only helps retain them, but it helps them to, to really learn the ropes, how to navigate, you know, uh, learning from wise women. Who've, who've been there a while.
Betsy Bush (15:10):
Right? So, so the, the older women who might be, uh, in positions to mentor younger women are often not there because they've been perhaps unfairly, let go.
Bonnie Marcus (15:24):
Um, the other thing that's really interesting out of the research is that of the women who said that they experienced gendered age-ism across the board, regardless of age, um, something like 73% did nothing. They didn't take any action. So then I drill down and I asked them, you know, if you experienced this, why didn't you take action? Well, many felt that they might lose their job. They feared the repercussions of it. They might be penalized. They didn't really know what to do. And if they did in fact, reach out to HR, their dissatisfaction with that conversation was something like 50% were very dissatisfied than if I hooked in moderately and very, it would be much higher as well as their manager. So women stay silent. You know, I say, this is very similar to the Me Too movement for women before Me Too happened is that we felt we didn't have a safe environment to speak up about our experience appearances in the workplace. We didn't have a legal background, you know, foundation to protect us. And it's similar. I found when I would, you know, when I was interviewing women for my book, not done yet 99.9% of the women insisted on being anonymous, they were still working and they feared the repercussions. And they said that, um, you know, they had really remained silent about this until I gave them a voice in the book, even if it was even if it was anonymous. So, you know, I find it similar to where we were before me too, and gendered age-ism isn't on the radar. It's people will talk about gender bias. And now I think they're beginning to talk more about age-ism, but not about the intersectionality.
Betsy Bush (17:40):
Hmm. What do you suggest a woman who feels she's been the target of gender age-ism, uh, what she do? What, what is her recourse for some kind of satisfaction, uh, justice or whatever?
Bonnie Marcus (17:57):
Well, you know, it depends on the situation. It depends on the relationship that you have with, with your manager or HR. And I talk about this in the book. I actually give some sample scripts. And how do you have some of these difficult conversations you have to really assess the situation? Was it said in the group, it's a joke. Um, could you then approach that person afterward and say, you know, um, I felt very uncomfortable when you started talking about older women as dinosaurs, or, you know, um, believe me, I've heard it all from some of the women I interviewed, um, and just let them know how that made you feel and bring more awareness to the fact that it was ageist. Because I think a lot of what happens in terms of demeaning comments, let's just take that category, um, maybe said in jest and people don't realize it's ageist
You know, it's like, when people say to me, oh, you look so great, you know, for your age or whatever, I took it as a compliment. I mean, I I'd still take the common, but it's ages, right? How am I supposed to look at this age? Right. So I think we have to assess the situation if it's a, um, it's, it's more serious where you're, um, not your workload is being redistributed. You're not invited to key meetings. You realize that now you're much more vulnerable to being pushed out. Um, it's important to address it in a conversation with either your manager or HR, or both, depending on how serious it is. You may want to consult an attorney, but you need to document your conversations so that there is, um, there is something in writing. For instance, if you had a meeting with HR and you brought up your experience with gendered age-ism, you want to document it and say, thank you for the meeting today, to discuss, discuss my experiences with so-and-so or hear about gendered age-ism you want to put it in writing because afterwards HR may say, oh, you know, so you were bullied or you, they may turn it into something that doesn't fall into that category.
Betsy Bush (20:30):
Yeah. It's, um, it's important to have some tools in the toolbox there. And one is, uh, is documentation. And that was something that certainly came out in the me too movement. Right. Even having a conversation with friend, you know, this happened to me, what do you think? Or, you know, so that the friend could say, yeah, you know, uh, uh, that, that evening we met for drinks and she told me what happened and this horrible comment that this person made. Um, I think that's, that's something we always need to keep in mind.
Bonnie Marcus (21:05):
Yeah. And the other thing, you know, which may not be as obvious is we need to address our own ages, beliefs, and how we may hold ourselves back, because we believe we're too old to get promoted, or we're too old to ask for a raise, or we're too old to get rehired at this tech company or, um, whatever it is, or, you know, we need to look young to be, um, considered for employment or, um, a promotion. So a lot of this stuff where, you know, we hold ourselves back. So the double whammy here is we face it externally because of our society and the workplace reflects the bias of society. And we have internalized a lot of it. And then we believe we hold ourselves back.
Betsy Bush (22:05):
So, so we should take on new projects. We should learn that new software platform. And, you know, maybe and stay curious absolutely because, uh, I mean, research brain research shows that, um, the, the connections between the two lobes of the brain actually improve with age, there's more connectivity, which leads to more, um, problem solving a better temperament. So our short-term memory, you know, may not be as great, but we also have a lot of benefits that we bring.
Betsy Bush (22:44):
Oh, interesting. You know, I want to get your opinion on something because there's been a lot of, of, uh, I mean, we're finally, w you know, we're talking about me too, and we're talking about gendered age-ism and women are also feeling freer to talk about health issues or stages of life, including things like menopause and the things that happen to you as you go through menopause. And I'm wondering if this is counterproductive to having older women in the workplace, because you might have someone who's thinking I don't want to have to deal with that. I don't want to, I don't want an older woman, who's going to have hot flashes all the time. You know, I don't know what to say about that. And I don't know if it's a good thing, or if it's a bad thing that's holding us back. Is it a good thing to be open about challenges that a lot of people have health issues that they may or may not talk, but I'm wondering if, if this, if this new conversation that's out there, uh, is maybe not working for women the way we would like it to work, what do you think?
Bonnie Marcus (23:59):
I, I think it's important to have the conversations. I definitely do. Um, you know, it's time that we, as women admit and own the fact that we are female and we're, we're in the patriarchy and, um, it, regardless of what industry you're in, um, it's the, the model is of a male's career path that we try to fit into. Right. And sometimes it doesn't always fit, um, or, or there are times when, like, for instance, when we want to be home with our children, um, and then we, you know, we're penalized for that. Um, but I think that having the conversation is real. This is what, this is what we are experiencing and not, I think we have to avoid being victims. You know, I think there's some strength in owning, um, who we are as women, uh, but not viewing it through the lens of, oh, you know, making it an excuse or being a victim because of it. I think there's strength in it. And I would advise anyone to pull down onto that rather than seeing it as, um, you know, we're being, we're being a victim.
Betsy Bush (25:30):
You know, there was some talk about, uh, with the, the great resignation or the big quit, whatever it is, uh, that's been happening in this COVID post COVID time. Um, that may be, this would represent an opportunity for older workers who want to get back into the workforce. Uh, there are younger, younger workers leaving. Maybe this is an opportunity to flood back into those places. Do you have any indication if this is working, if this is the case,
Bonnie Marcus (26:04):
I don't, I, I don't have an indication that it's working. Um, I think it's, um, very few companies, uh, recognize that maybe the solution to their low employment rate is to retain or hire, um, some older workers who are very talented, who are very qualified and who want to work. Um, I just wrote an op-ed that, that will be published soon on that topic. It's like, there's this great resignation, Low employment rate. Um, and yet companies are ignoring the fact that there is a pool of qualified workers, women over 50, especially the one need to work.
Betsy Bush (26:56):
That seems to be an obvious match.
Betsy Bush (27:05):
Um, was this the research you you've been, we've been talking about? Was that part of your book not done yet? Or was, was the research for your book previous to that? Or was it all one, one project just out of curiosity,
Bonnie Marcus (27:21):
It was done after the book. It was after the book. Um, you know, I did, I did a lot of research for the book, um, and I did a lot of interviews and there's a lot of anecdotal material in there not only about, you know, my own experiences in my own life, but, um, all the women that I interviewed right along with research about general research, about age-ism and gendered age-ism, et cetera, look ism as Catalysts calls it, the, you know, the emphasis on, on the way we look and how that affects our careers. Um, but no, I completed it. I completed it afterwards. I was just very curious how prevalent it was. I was very curious how it affected women of all ages and wanted to know more about how it affected not only, um, our job security, but our financial future. And so I did get a lot of information about that, which is pretty disheartening,
Betsy Bush (28:31):
Especially considering how much longer women live than men to see them entering into those later years with less financial security. It is it's chilling actually. Um, to think that there were, are a lot of women who may find themselves in poverty towards the end of their lives, when they need more resources, not fewer because of probably health concerns or, you know, whatever. Um, it's, it's a very serious issue.
Bonnie Marcus (29:06):
Oh man, I, you know, I, I interviewed a woman, um, couple of days ago, who's 48 and she has been looking for a job for 10 years.
Betsy Bush (29:17):
Oh my gosh.
Bonnie Marcus (29:18):
Is that a master's degree? Um, and she's been homeless at times, she's divorced, uh, three children. Um, and it's ju you know, she's done a lot of volunteer work. She stayed home with her kids for awhile and, uh, is paying the penalty for that. Now that she's ready to reenter the workforce. And this is not an isolated story right now that she's ready to reenter the work force. Um, and she started doing this, you know, 38, 39. Uh, she sees that, um, younger women are getting the jobs and she's not,
Betsy Bush (30:00):
That's tough. So, you know, I always like to kind of wrap up with, uh, three pieces of advice, and I'm sure you have more than three pieces of advice. What message can you send to my listener, who is a woman of well ages and starts at the age of 40, which is rather shocking. And, uh, how, how can we protect ourselves? How can we make the most of the situations we're in? Or what, what kind of advice do you have for anyone facing gendered age-ism?
Bonnie Marcus (30:39):
Uh, well, I would say the first thing is really to do some self-reflection and take a good, hard look at the bias and some of the stereotypes and assumptions that you're making about yourself as you age, because they can be really powerful, Betsy. You could be sabotaging yourself.
Betsy Bush (31:03):
Can you give me an example?
Bonnie Marcus (31:07):
Yeah. That, um, that you're too old to learn new things that you're too old to get promoted, those kinds of things. Then I would say, you know, my book not done yet is all about this, exactly things that you need to do to stay marketable. So it's important to know that gendered age-ism exists and we need to be aware of it. And we need to be vigilant because if we wait till we're over 50 to do some of the things, to give us credibility and visibility, if we kind of stay in the sidelines, um, then we're going to be much more vulnerable to being pushed out the door. So there is a lot of advice there about how, how to really stay front and center, letting people, your manager know that you're committed to doing your best work for X amount of years. You know, what does that look like? I want to continue to add value, right? Um, understanding your value proposition, uh, advocating for yourself and advocating for others, um, cultivating your growth mindset. You know, if your company doesn't offer training, maybe they'll reimburse you for training, but not only stay current, but try to stay ahead of the game a little bit. What are some of the trends in your industry? What skills can you learn that will put you in a position perhaps to mentor others? And some of you are younger colleagues, and then, um, this is much more than three, uh, you know, develop a network that includes younger colleagues. Hm. Um, so build a cross-generational network where you, um, develop win-win relationships, you learn from each other.
Betsy Bush (33:09):
That's, that's interesting. This is the second conversation I've had today that has mentioned the importance of intergenerationality and learning from each other. You can learn from them and they can learn from you. And maybe when they learn from you they'll think, oh, what I thought I knew about someone at 50 or 60 isn't necessarily the case,
Bonnie Marcus (33:33):
Right? Because we do make assumptions. We put people in categories based on their age, and then we make assumptions about what they can and can't do. But when we reach out, we make these one-on-one relationships. Very often, all that bias gets pushed aside because we understand the value that, you know, each of us have. Yes.
Betsy Bush (33:56):
And, and so much of it, uh, is about individual abilities, not related to age or gender or race or any of those things.
Bonnie Marcus (34:14):
It's, it's about the individual and, and the capabilities of those people, of individuals and our experience, you know, our wisdom gained through the years. Um, you know, when I look back at my corporate career of 25 plus years, I learned a lot, um, to reach the C-suite and I learned how to navigate. I learned how to do that as a single mom, I learned how to balance everything. I mean, I would bring, um, uh, you know, a wealth of experience and knowledge to somebody who is just starting out and trying to figure out how to do that. So it's owning what we bring, right. Honoring what we bring ourselves and understanding is not just about what a younger person brings to the table. We have to recognize, you know, that, that we have a lot as well.
Betsy Bush (35:05):
That's a great message. I think, to, uh, wrap this up with, um, this has been an amazing conversation, Bonnie. I am so, so glad you were able to join me on The Latest Version, your, all your information on your wonderful book, not done yet will be on the show notes page, and also more information about you. Of course. And I hope all my listeners are thinking about how they imagine themselves and don't fall into the stereotypes that we have all been subjected to our entire lives. Right. You're not over the hill, certainly not done either. Neither am I. So anyway, what a great conversation. Thank you so much, Bonnie. It was great to have you Bonnie Marcus. Thanks so much.