Episode 26: Len Mitchell: From Attorney to Philosophy Professor, exploring the formula for happiness
So what is happiness? Do we need to be happy? What's the relationship between happiness and a meaningful life? Len Mitchell is a professor of philosophy at Pace University in New York, where he teaches a popular undergraduate course on the Philosophy of Happiness. Len came to this field later in life, retiring from Time Warner after a 22- year career as a tax attorney.
Topics include:
Taking advantage of a buy-out from his company at the age of 50 and embarking on a six year quest to get a Ph.D. in philosophy
The challenges of studying the subject when he had no undergraduate background in it
How college courses can add value to your life as an older student
The importance of finding a mentor—and becoming a mentor for someone else
The philosophy of happiness: Eudaimonia, of human flourishing
Religion vs philosophy as guides to happiness
Happiness as a sense of life purpose
The importance of embracing new experiences.
Dr. E. Len Mitchell is a Lecturer in Philosophy and Religious Studies. He holds a baccalaureate degree from Auburn University (1973), a Juris Doctorate degree from Cumberland School of Law (Samford University, 1976), law masters degrees (LL.M.s) i from New York University (1978, 1989), and a Ph.D. from City University of New York Graduate Center (2007). After taking an early retirement from Time Warner, he studied philosophy from 2001 to 2007, culminating in his Ph.D. in Philosophy. He has taught at Pace University in New York since 2008.
Resources:
These are the books that Prof Mitchell uses in his course on the philosophy of happiness:
Happiness: A History by Darrin McMahon, 2006
Aristotle's Way: How Ancient Wisdom Can Change Your Life by Edith Hall, 2019
Man's Search for Meaning, Victor Frankl, 1959
Transcript:
Len Mitchell (00:40):
Lifetimes. It's pretty much had the view that this life is to be enjoyed. And this is even if you believe that there was an afterlife, but there's no reaching postponing sort of concept of happiness and fulfillment.
Betsy Bush (00:56):
So what is happiness? Do we need to be happy? What's the relationship between happiness and a meaningful life? Hmm, great, big philosophical questions. My guests today, Len Mitchell may be able to help us out here. Len is a professor of philosophy at pace university in New York, where he teaches a popular undergraduate course on the philosophy of happiness. And maybe he knows what he's talking about. He came to this field later in life. Len started out as a tax attorney, retiring from Time Warner after a 22 year career in the law. Len, welcome to The Latest Version.
Len Mitchell (01:46):
Thank you, betcha. It's a pleasure to be here with you.
Betsy Bush (01:49):
You know, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that at 50 you left the law and embarked on a six year PhD program in philosophy. Tell me a little bit about what that process was like.
Len Mitchell (02:07):
Well, the process was, um, kind of evolved to naturally in the sense that, uh, time Warner was going through. Uh, I had had a very fulfilling career, not as long as many at time Warner, but I, uh, I enjoyed it and it was, um, rewarding in many respects, but there was, um, a sense, um, that I would like to try other things and do other things. And I probably wouldn't have done it on my own because it would have been too big of a step to jump ship, but there was an opportunity time Warner offered to people that were in my category, who had been at the company for a number of years and were of a certain age, which was 50, which I was or more. And I was so barely qualified, but I was always admired those people that knew early on in life, what exactly they wanted to. I was not one of those people. I was one of those people that had many different majors in college and was always kind of interested in various things. And I thought, well, and I didn't change. This was still something I enjoyed doing, but I thought, what else could I do and enjoy? And that gave me that opportunity to do it. So that's, I took it.
Betsy Bush (03:22):
Was there a connection between law and philosophy or did you like philosophy because it was a break from the law.
Len Mitchell (03:28):
There is a connection, but I, that's not the reason I went to it. There's a thing called philosophy of law, which I've taught the thing that was going on in my mind. And I'm not even sure it was inactive solid. It was more of like in the back of my mind is that I grew up in a very religious, Southern Baptist environment. And when in doubt about things, I was always told to go to the scriptures or pray. And that would be the way to resolve these big life issues. That worked for a lot of people didn't really work for me. I'm not, I'm not downplaying it for those people that does work, but it was always felt like that was, I wanted to approach these vague issues from a, with a clear mind, without there being any sort of filter. And I thought that they in philosophy would offer that I had not studied philosophy before, but I knew enough about it or at least read about it, had the reputation of allowing for free-thinking and pre-evaluation and clear evaluation of issues. And that's what I wanted to do. So I started taking courses in undergraduate at Pace, and then quickly realized that I would like to do a bit more of this. So I went to a graduate program in New York city and that's where I got my PhD.
Betsy Bush (04:48):
So you're obviously not from New York. That's all right. tell me a little bit about your early years.
Len Mitchell (04:56):
I grew up in a small town in Alabama. My dad was the owner and operator of a piglet victory store. So I grew up sacking groceries and stocking shelves and doing all the other things that you do in a Piggly wiggly supermarket. I wasn't a big book, the big one, but it was a reasonable sized one. So we knew everybody in town and yeah, it was a good childhood, but it was fairly limiting from the standpoint of experiencing the world. So I went and I followed my sister who was five years old or to Auburn university where I studied. And as I mentioned before, I had a lot of different majors, finally finished in business, uh, considered, uh, was in pre vet medicine for a while. And if I had another life, I'd probably do that. But it was, uh, it was tough and I, you needed a lot of concentration and at the time I wasn't completely focused and, and I didn't wash out, but I did voluntarily left that program and did other things. And as I say, finished business and then went right on to law school. My brother-in-law at the time loved law school and just raved about it. And he was married to my sister and thinking about what to do. I decided to do that. And, um, I didn't like it the first year, particularly. I thought it was very repressive and difficult and some were just meant to be, I guess, but it got better. I stayed with it and finished in law and went on to practice in a small town, larger than my town, but a small town in Alabama, but still felt like that. I wanted to quote see the world and that's led me to go out and come to New York. Uh, I knew the reputation of the NYU tax program and I, uh, decided to apply there. And I applied to a couple of other schools as well, but I was accepted at NYU and I was fascinated. I've been once to New York and to Greenwich village and I thought "This would be a way to see the world pass in front of you. And I think it's true, "
Betsy Bush (06:59):
Isn't that the truth. And especially, I think you were at law school in the late seventies, New York was a very different place than it is now in the late seventies. I know, cause I was at NYU undergrad about time.
Len Mitchell (07:14):
It was a bit rough and tumble. You stay right in the Washington square area, everything was fine. But if you went too far west or do far east, you could easily get in trouble, right?
Betsy Bush (07:24):
So this was a big change going from a small town in Alabama to New York. So that was maybe a first big change for you.
Len Mitchell (07:31):
It's a big change. Every step along the way was begging it, just going from a small town to Auburn. And then from Auburn to Birmingham, where I went to got my JD. And then of course to New York was a big step. You know, I just felt that I wanted to see what it was like, you know, New York is legendary. Some people love it. Some people don't love it. Um, one that did love it. And while I don't live in Manhattan, now my son does, but I can see myself living there again because I, I love the variety that it offers
Betsy Bush (08:02):
For sure. What did your family think of all these changes?
Len Mitchell (08:05):
God, I don't know that you've thought something's gone haywire with this kid, but seriously they were supportive. My parents were loving parents and they never really gave up on me and didn't discourage me. They I'm sure it didn't understand what was going on in my mind, but they would, um, we never lost contact and they would come visit. And after I got married and had children, they would come even more regularly and we would go there. So we have to say that I maintain, uh, an excellent relation in loving relationship with both my parents who lived to age 86 and 94. Yeah. And I have one sister and she still lives in south Alabama and loves come visit, but probably doesn't understand what motivated me to leave Alabama.
Betsy Bush (09:00):
Well, there are a lot of New Yorkers who share that story, I think.
Len Mitchell (09:05):
Yeah, I've run and I've met so many of them. And the thing about New Yorkers, they talk to the reputation outside of New York, at least where I grew up as new Yorkers unfriendly. I didn't find that to be the case at all. I think one, especially when you are in an environment where people feel safe, that you're not some sort of threat to them, they give us friendly as any PI anybody, anywhere that I've been
Betsy Bush (09:26):
Sure. So when you left the law to study, you said that you started taking some undergraduate courses in philosophy at pace, or did I get that wrong? Yeah. Yeah, because I went back to school at the age of 56. I started an undergraduate program at Columbia, um, but was also taking the core curriculum courses that I found as an adult, an older adult to be really enlightening because you see things as an older person that you didn't see as a 20 year old. Right. Was that also your experience?
Len Mitchell (10:04):
It was when I was studying as an adult, you know, I was studying things because I was interested in them. It wasn't because I need this to get a degree. I was taking things because I thought that would be enriching in some respect. I mean, there were things I took that I might not have if it wasn't for the requirement of the program, but it was always thinking about how does this enrich my life, make me add value to my life in some way. And you talk about being an older student. I was, I was, but I was probably a neophyte when it came to philosophy. So I, I actually leaned on some of my younger friends for help along the way, because they were, many of them had been philosophy, undergraduate students and had Masters. And so I was behind from the standpoint of the, the academics of philosophy.
Betsy Bush (10:57):
I would imagine you had a lot of reading to do, right. And you had a lot of reading all of that Aristotle and Plato and all of that.
Len Mitchell (11:06):
Yeah, there is, there's a lot of reading, but it was enjoyable. And of course the professor can bring it alive. And that's what happened. My favorite professor became my, um, PhD mentor and, um, I'm still in touch with him.
Betsy Bush (11:22):
So here you are, you're teaching, you've been teaching undergraduate since I think 2008. So it's been even a while since you've been doing that. Right. I think a lot of people who are looking at second careers have this dream, oh, it'd be so great to teach and to teach on a campus. Right. And I'm wondering what your experience has been have. Are we idealizing this idea of going back to the groves of academe or what do you think what's your experience?
Len Mitchell (11:52):
No, I don't think it's it resonate with that very much. Just the way you described it. It's, um, even when I was not a full-time student, when I was at Time Warner, I went back to NYU and took courses and always just, I liked being in the academic environment. I thought it was almost an ideal lifestyle and I love being on a campus as I am at the pace of campus in Pleasantsville, which is a beautiful suburban campus. And I just liked the atmosphere of it. It seemed like it has all everything you need. It has, I don't live there. I mean, I probably would consider that there was a faculty housing, but there's athletic events, there's cultural events. There's of course the Academics and colleagues that you can share things with and students, and I love being around younger people. And I don't feel my age when I'm around them as much, because I felt like they were engaged in common activities and the things that we're discussing. And I don't feel like they're colleagues and I have a rude awakening when though I'm maybe talking to some of the younger students and we walked past a plate glass window and I'd say, wow, who's that old guy with these young kids. And I realized that that that's me. And so it kind of takes you down a little bit and say, you're not fitting in as much as you think you are Mitchell.
Betsy Bush (13:16):
So you've been teaching a while when you think 13 years or so have students changed in that time, have their priorities changed or their interests changed, or do you think that age group is it's kind of a immutable they're always going to be the same, I'm interested in what you think.
Len Mitchell (13:39):
Yeah. You know, I don't, uh, I haven't seen a big change since I've been there and now it may be, if I'd been at some places where there was a lot of political activity, there's a certain amount on our campus. And there were having events coming up next weekend that have to do with social justice. And I applaud that, but it's not like there's a, has been a big change. And I guess social consciousness, I think students are socially conscious and they have been since I've been there and that's all, haven't had seen big changes. It may be if I was an urban school and might've seen it, but I haven't on mine. It's mostly students from tend to be from middle class backgrounds and working class families. And they've, um, you know, they appreciate the value of education and they are reasonably focused on more than others. I say that some of my students are really excellent students and other students are like I was, but I learned from them all. And that's, that's really true. I learned from them and I, I love it when we get involved in class discussions. And I feel like the students are engaged and I truly do learn things from them.
Betsy Bush (14:49):
So you teach this course called the philosophy of happiness. And I know a lot of my listeners are going to be like, okay, let's get to them. Let's get into the meat of the discussion. What is the philosophy of happiness? What do you think philosophy has to teach us?
Len Mitchell (15:05):
Well, the philosophy is broken down is the, the level of wisdom and philosophy of happiness has a lot to do with understanding ourselves. So Socrates says "know thyself." And we, we go through our life learning about ourselves, and it's hard to really look at yourself objectively, but we can learn from other people and the experiences of other people. So the first book that we study in my course, in happiness is a historical survey and it's, um, in our lifetimes, it's, we pretty much had the view that this life is to be enjoyed. And this is it, even if you believe, and there was a natural life, but there's no reason to postpone any sort of concept of happiness and fulfillment, but there've been periods in history when there was, the view was the happiness is not for this lifetime. This is for earning your place in the afterlife. And that's when you'll have happiness. And that's just one of the differences that we've seen over the course of history. And of course, the Enlightenment had a lot to do with, uh, our attitudes and dare to know, uh, cyber, uh, holiday, the Latin phrase for that. I'm there to know, and I that's inspired me. And that's is something that dare to know yourself, I think is a big part of it. But you said in your introduction that happiness and I believe this is related to our purpose and a big part of, I think happiness is, and it's happiness may sound like a, almost a trite objective, but Aristotle didn't think it was and Aristotle was a pretty serious guy that he used the term eudaimonia, which can translate in various things. But human flourishing is one translation. And so, you know, we may not always be giddy happy in the sense of like this jumping with joy. But if we feel like we're on a path of doing something that is worthwhile and has purpose, then I think we can feel fulfilled. So I think of eudaimonia is, gosh, we have to think about what it means. And it can mean a spirit guide. It can mean various things, but it's, "Eu" means good. So good spirit guide. There's a certain amount of luck that comes with it too. I won't discount that. And that's built into even Aristotle is thinking about it, that it's not like there's a pattern. There's like baking a cake. You can just come up with the ingredients, put them in the right temperature. And you're going to have a wonderful cake. It doesn't always work out, you know, things don't go well for even well-meaning people sometimes. And sometimes people that you think don't deserve it seem to have wonderful lives. So it's one of those, a little bit of mystery and a little bit of fortune that's built into our lives. And I don't have an explanation of that, except that it seems like that's the way it is, but we can do the best with what we have.
Betsy Bush (18:01):
I wonder if even happiness is not quite the word we're looking for, is it satisfaction? Is it fulfillment, having a sense of purpose? I'm here for a reason I'm doing good. I've made someone's life better today, right?
Len Mitchell (18:17):
I think you're right. And when I created the core, so I talked to my colleague about it. We talk a little bit about that and we could have been, you know, the philosophy of eudaimonia, but I think it might not have had the same attraction for students. I mean, everybody wants to be happy. It's not like a hook that we were trying to trick people in study something that is not what we're studying. And happiness is certainly a goal, but it can be a more profound happiness that I think is more worth achieving. And that I think of happiness that comes from from effort and satisfaction. Yes there's. As you say, there are other words that may be even more descriptive about it.
Betsy Bush (19:01):
I've never heard the term Eudaimonia before. And I'm someone who has an undergraduate degree from Columbia. And I'm wondering, how did I miss that? Can you describe that a little bit? And you know, even spelling it is problematic. E U D A I M O N I A. And I only know that because I did a little bit of research on you.
Len Mitchell (19:23):
Yeah. It's, uh, you know, I guess the reason I like it, because it does stand for a few different concepts and it makes you think, if you say happiness, everybody knows what that is or thinks they know what it is. But if you have a term like this, that I didn't invent for sure, I got it from Aristotle. And he got it from his predecessors of it's a Greek term that does have this, what I interprete as being a, doing those things and achieving those things that we're particularly capable of achieving as human beings, Aristotle acknowledged that other animals that can achieve a sense of satisfaction, but we can only be made, he believed in our belief that we can only really be satisfied if we're using all of our facilities. We have facilities as humans that we believe that other creatures don't have and the ability of reflection, ability to, to plan and achieve and to find purpose. Most things in the world seem to know what their purpose is. I love dogs, for instance, they seem to not worry about purpose. They kind of, they love affection and they love to eat and they love to play and so do we. But then we also, I think at our higher selves, we love to reflect and have these meanings in our life that sometimes drag us down where, you know, we can't figure out what that is. But I think it also motivates us to think about when our days come to a close and we can look back with some feeling that we've done our best.
Betsy Bush (21:00):
Can you contrast what you've learned as a PhD in philosophy with your upbringing as a Southern Baptist? And I say this as someone who I'm a Presbyterian, I go to church every week and you know, the idea of, you know, it's go to the Bible for your, you know, view of happiness. To me, that's, it's not very satisfactory. Um, we've been looking for the meaning of happiness for thousands of years, really prior to, you know, the Greeks were onto this long before. I think, you know, the new Testament was written. I can't really talk to the old Testament, but I'm wondering what the comparison and the contrast is with your early life being raised in the church versus what you've learned. Now,
Len Mitchell (21:49):
I think there is a lot of wisdom in the Bible, both the old and new Testament, and I'm an admirer of the ethics that we get. but that the ethics of Jesus are quite profound. And if we could all just follow that, if we, we loved our enemies, just think what a world it could be. And if we could to be the good Samaritan and be looking out for the downtrodden and make those things a priority and not the think of the story of the passing of the rich man's ability to achieve the afterlife is more difficult than the camel pasture to the eye of a needle. Um, things of those sorts are pretty dramatic if we took them seriously. So there's a lot to learn from these scriptures, what we don't know, at least what I don't know. And others say, well, ignorance is the metaphysical aspects of it is, you know, is it the way it's been interpreted? Is, is there a heaven and hell, and there's a, is there an afterlife? Does it require us to make a profession of faith in something that, you know, some philosophers like Kierkegard says, you have to take this leap of faith. That almost goes against the rational mind of a philosopher, but it's certainly don't dismiss it. And I just, you know, people have to find their own way. And for many, uh, I know, their faith is, is everything. And I would never try to talk somebody out of that because I think that would be, there's such a thing as sin that would probably be sinful to draw somebody out of their faith. But if you are one that's still searching after, and that is not fulfilling for you. I think that some study of philosophy in the study of great thinkers is, is another way to go about it. And for me, it's been fulfilling.
Betsy Bush (23:53):
When you look back on your journey from being an attorney, a successful attorney, making this fairly dramatic life change at, you know, midlife, mid career. Do you have advice for others who are thinking of making a similar leap?
Len Mitchell (24:12):
Yeah, I guess I have some advice in general and whether you're thinking of making a career move or not. And I, I do counsel students at Pace and I'm director of the honors college and have a lot of very bright students that I talk to on a regular basis. And I encourage my students and I would encourage people generally are thinking of it, found this, you know, this is what I want to do with my life. And this is it. And I'm still an admirer of those people that come about that naturally. But I encourage people to explore academic and learning opportunities wherever they find them. And if you say, well, I don't know anything about that. That's all the reason to do it. Especially if you're an undergraduate to take a course in something you don't know anything about, you say, this might be interesting because that could be a pipe way to something that you want to do more of.
Len Mitchell (25:07):
And if you don't like it. So be it, you know, when one semester of something is unlikely to cause any damage, it's more than likely to enlighten you and kind of leads me to another piece of advice is to know the things that you love or like, but also know that things you don't like. I think it's as important to know the things that aren't for you as it is to know the things that are for you. So if you can start whittling away the things, well, this is a life that I don't want to live, or this is the path I don't want to take. That's instructive and that's helpful. It helps them narrow down the options, you know, college students. And I know this is we're darken to people beyond college students, but all of us, we have, especially with that age and then early, late teens, early twenties, making a lot of decisions, making decisions about that can affect the rest of your life.
Len Mitchell (25:58):
You're making decisions about your career and you're making decisions about whether you're going to finish your undergraduate studies or going on to graduate studies. You've making many people, I wasn't one of them, but making decisions about life partners. And those are big decisions. That would be big decision that at any age, for anybody, it's a lot to pack into a short period of time. It's a very impactful period of time for people that age and that station in their life. But I encourage people to explore and to see what there is to, to know about that they don't know about and not just stick with something that they're comfortable with. So get it out there out of the conference zone.
Betsy Bush (26:38):
I think one of the toughest things we put on young people is that question, what are you going to major in when you really going to college to explore? And my experience looking at my younger classmates, when I was at Columbia, was that pressure to make those decisions. And then you kind of locked yourself in to finishing all those course requirements for the major requirements. And you don't give yourself an opportunity to explore, or you don't want to take a course where you might not do well because you want to keep your GPA up. And I think that's tragic because when else in your life, or you're going to have this opportunity, unless you go back in your fifties and, you know, start all over again, right?
Len Mitchell (27:25):
And if you have a demanding job, when you're out of school, then you don't have the time to go and seek out education. Of course it's become, you can do continuing ed stuff, but you know, not everybody does that and it's not feasible for everybody. Sometimes it can be expensive and it can be inconvenient. But if you're on a college campus, what could be more convenient than just drifting over to another classroom in another building and taking something outside of your discipline, if you have a discipline and checking it out. Yeah. So I, I encourage people to do that in the, whether you're currently students or not. Another thing I advise and I think is important, vice my students and advise others is to find mentors. Everybody has people that care about and certainly tried to get the, and hopefully everybody has somebody. Even your parents love you.
Len Mitchell (28:20):
Somebody loves you and cares about you and that's, you know, appreciate them and spend time with them, but seek out other mentors. It's important. You know, many of my students come from very loving and supportive backgrounds or families and certainly no way that I could ever replace or, or anybody else their love of their parents and siblings, other extended family, but they don't know the environment that you're in, in academic. They don't know the moving pieces. They don't know the characters. They don't know the situations. You develop mentors in your place, wherever it's your place of business, where you're working or where you're studying or wherever it happens to be. Then you have a shorthand of like, you have come to your people, you go to for advice and they doesn't take much actuation to say, well, I'm having this difficulty with this professor or this situation more than likely they'll have an idea of what you're talking about without having to explain it in great detail. So it's a very important to develop these develop mentors in every walk of life, not just in school. And I've tried to do it along the way. And as I mentioned, my dissertation advisor or somebody I've met when I was over 50 and still I go to for advice. So it's important, I think to have mentors. And it's important if people come to you to ask you to mentor them, is to be open to that possibility to give back in that way.
Betsy Bush (29:49):
I can't think of a greater privilege than to act as a mentor to a young person because you're really having an impact on their lives.
Len Mitchell (29:57):
I agree. And the other thing is, is that I've developed for myself when in doubt go for it and do it. If it doesn't, it's not in any way don't violate any ethical principles or legal principles or unless you're engaged in civil disobedience. And there's a, you know, that's can be ethical as well, but generally any regrets I have in life or things that I didn't do as opposed to things I did do, it was very few exceptions. And I think about a few things I did to do because, well, it doesn't seem, I'm not sure and blah, blah, blah, you know, and kind of wishy washy, then I think just do it, you know, unless it's going to hurt somebody or hurt me or, you know, really foolish, then just do it. Uh, somebody recently, and this is the only time it's happened. A former student who's now a lawyer asked me to performance marriage ceremony in Washington, DC.
Len Mitchell (30:48):
And I thought that's a little crazy, and I don't have any credentials to do that. But I said, I don't know if this ever happened again. So I did it and I'm so happy I did. It happened two weekends ago and I think everybody was pleased. And I, um, I was certainly happy to be a part of it. And I though that's just another slice of life. And if I said, man, I don't really think I can do it. And you know, that would have been okay, but I'm glad I did it. And there've been many situations though, along the way, a member of a friend and mirror many years ago asked me to come to his wedding, not to be a part of it, but it was at the wedding. It was, it was an inconvenience out of state. It was not. And I didn't do it and always regret that that friend passed away at a young, young age. Not because I didn't go to his wedding, but you know, I just felt, you know, that was something I should've done. I should've been there.
Betsy Bush (31:42):
I think this is a fantastic philosophy of life, which is not to box yourself in or to limit yourself, but to embrace those new opportunities, including being interviewed for a podcast,
Len Mitchell (31:59):
It was a great privilege. I'm really so happy that you asked me to do inspection.
Betsy Bush (32:04):
This has been so much fun. Len, I've gotten so much out of this and I'm sure my listeners will as well. I really, really appreciate your sharing, your philosophy of happiness and of life and sharing your life's journey with us. It's been inspiring and, and really just wonderful. And I appreciate your being with me too.
Len Mitchell (32:23):
I'm so happy. And thank you again for this privilege of mine.
Betsy Bush (32:28):
Thanks again. Thanks for listening, please.